SSv1, SSv2, and AP25 (SSv3) FAQ

Discussion in 'Xbox 360' started by Animorphed, Nov 9, 2010 with 119 replies and 53,835 views.

  1. Animorphed

    Animorphed Getting There

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    **UPDATED 11/15/2010 - Check this page and page 5**

    Just wanted to make a quick post to hopefully answer a number of questions people seem to have about security and getting banned, how it works, how to stay safe, etc..

    Difference between a RETAIL game and a BACKUP (burned copy):

    Retail discs include a security layer that a DVD burner cannot reproduce. When making a copy of the retail disc that security info can be read and stored but cannot be rewritten on the backup the same way it existed on the original retail disc. That is why you must have a modified firmware (flashed xbox) that will be able to read/respond to that security information even if it is not stored in the same way as an original retail disc. This is what SSv1 and SSv2 refer to, the way the backup stores the security info to be read by the flashed xbox drive.


    AP25 and YOU:

    First off, FIFA 09 is not an AP25 title. Currently the only AP25 titles are Fable 3, Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood, and Need for Speed Hot Pursuit.

    What is AP25? Anti-Piracy 2.5 Simply put, its an updated security layer on both the disc and in the game files.
    There is a lot of confusion on how AP25 actually works, many people just make something up or attempt to make it sound far more technical (scarier) than it really is.

    Like the security system outlined above AP25 should work in the same way but with an added check. When you attempt to boot the game AP25 kicks in and asks the DVD drive to check some things on another security layer. If you have a backup of an AP25 title in the drive this check will fail because those security layers do not exist on the backup. Because AP25 is new, the current LT firmware does not have the ability to fake a response or look somewhere else for this security info if you are trying to play a backup copy. If you have the original retail disc in the drive the AP25 check will pass because the drive is able to location the security layer and return the proper response. When LT+ is released it should support this new security feature and be able to answer future AP25 checks without the retail disc. This is being referred to as SSv3 (our new fake security layer for backups).

    **Ok, so without LT+ if I want to play an AP25 game like Fable 3 I need the retail disc?:

    Yes.

    What about the Nov. 1 Dash update? (Kinect Dash):

    Dash update is safe. The only reason an old dashboard will not fail an AP25 check and the new dashboard will is old dashboards do not support the new security feature. Basically before the dashboard update on Nov.1 the 360 didn't look for AP25 because it didn't know it was supposed to. The new dashboard now has that support built in. Other than that, its just a dashboard update.

    Why do people say Samsung and Hitachi drives are safe? Is my LiteOn/BenQ not safe?:

    Some drives may be physically unable to read this new security layer (AP25 layer) and thus are considered "safe" from the new AP25 checks. LiteOn and BenQ drives are able to read this information and when asked by an AP25 title they will.

    So, can I replace my 360's drive with a Samsung to be safe?

    No. A drive is locked to the 360 it shipped with and cannot be swapped out. There is a method known as "spoofing"(copying some of the drive info to make the xbox think its the original) that will allow another drive to work. This is NOT a safe way to avoid AP25 checks. Even though the drive works, when an AP25 title asks for the check to be performed, your xbox will still "think" it has the original drive, so if it was a LiteOn or BenQ before then it will attempt to check even if it can't. If the check doesn't pass then your xbox will fail.

    What happens if I fail an AP25 check?:

    If you happen to fail and AP25 check for any reason your xbox will record this failure and your console will report back to MS that this check has failed. Currently it is believed Microsoft is collecting data for another ban wave using this information. Being flagged doesn't guarantee a ban, but MS is aware that your xbox did not pass.

    I've also heard AP25 could be added to older games with a title update?! Is this true?:

    Yes and No.
    AP25 checks could only be added if the original disc had an AP25 security layer to begin with.

    **If I fail an AP25 check will it prevent me from playing other backups?


    No. When an AP25 title fails the test it does in fact return an unreadable/dirty disc error. Essentially, it is looking for something that cannot be found on the disc so the error comes back as unreadable/dirty disc. This is ONLY for the failed AP25 title and will ONLY happen on the backup. If you failed an AP25 check with say a Fable III backup, you can play with the retail disc just fine because when it looks for the AP25 information it will find it. Failing the AP25 check will not prevent other non-AP25 titles from playing nor will it prevent you from playing legit retail copies of the AP25 title even after failure. There is no corruption or dirty MS tricks involved with this, the backup disc you are attempting to play (AP25 title) really is unreadable since the AP25 data isn't there.

    **Will the upcoming LT+ software fix my AP25 failure flag?

    No. When LT+ is available and flashed on the console, even after a failed AP25 check, your backup AP25 title should then become readable as the drive can now look elsewhere for that stored AP25 response information. I do not expect the flag to be removed after flashing with LT+ due to the fact you can currently pass the AP25 check using a retail disc but the flag will remain if you failed the check prior. Think of the Xval(secdata) like the Windows Event Log. When an error occurs it records the error in the log for the Admin (in this case Microsoft / XBLive) to look at. What MS chooses to do with that information is still up in the air.

    **As Jester pointed out in this thread, you can also write protect the NAND to prevent the xbox from being able to log security events such as failing the AP25 check. It will not bypass the check but if you were to fail the check it would not record the failure for future reporting to MS next time you are online. A guide for this will be added soon however it is recommended, unless you feel safe soldering things to the xbox motherboard, that you stick to double-checking your iso's before tossing the disc into the drive. If you xbox is already banned this may be of use to you as well.




    If there are other general questions I missed please post them and I will attempt to answer them.
    If any of the above info is incorrect and you have proof to support that I will be happy to edit this "FAQ" with the new information. Posting that you read somewhere or giving me a link to another forum is not proof but the reason I wrote this. Too much information is made up or misinterpreted causing more scare and panic than necessary. There are always going to be security improvements made, AP25 is just one of them. I only know how the system works on a basic level. I do not have any information on how AP25 request/reponse data is generated. It could be a general system (all games store the same values, the check just serves and a secondary check to the original check) as the ones before it or it could be a game-by-game basis (individual games have their own AP25 values). Do NOT post responses based only on what you have heard. If you have direct or personal knowledge on how these security systems work, feel free.
     
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  2. Fuse Colour

    Fuse Colour Getting There

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    That has cleared a lot of things up, thanks!

    ... Just one question, what if we get are hands on the blank xbox disks and the drive they use to burn the games too?

    - Alex.
     
  3. meetii

    meetii Lads In Black VIP

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    I don't think you can get your hands on a blank xbox 360 disk :frown:
     
  4. fersy

    fersy Enthusiast

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    cheers mate that clears up a lot for me that i wanted to ask. much appreciated :smile:
     
  5. moeiscool

    moeiscool Enthusiast

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    this should be stickied i actually read the whole thing =)
     
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  6. Plox

    Plox Newbie

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    Good post thanks.
     
  7. fersy

    fersy Enthusiast

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    i second that :biggrin:
     
  8. skaffle

    skaffle Enthusiast

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    Excellent post! Very helpful!
     
  9. OP
    Animorphed

    Animorphed Getting There

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    There is no such thing as a "blank xbox disc". Xbox 360 games (and other retail media) are manufactured using a different process than your standard dvd burner. The drive they use is actually a disc replication process that usually involves creating a glass master that is then used as the mold for the a machine to create the information layer of the disc. Most people refer to the process as disc pressing because they are made in layers, pressed together, then printed, packaged, and shipped. That is why we can't just take a game disc and burn an exact 1:1 copy. The process allows them to add information to the discs normal burners cannot copy.
     
  10. fersy

    fersy Enthusiast

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    was just going to say that. original discs arent burned in the factory they are kinda pressed so we cant replicate some of the stuff they can put on them at home.
     
  11. MuDu

    MuDu Newbie

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    If your xbox is flashed... can you get online and acces netflix? play older games that do not have ap 2.5.. online? dose MOH have ap 2.5? Will i get banned if i go online? Has anyone played black ops?
     
  12. OP
    Animorphed

    Animorphed Getting There

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    All of these answers are above.

    You can do anything except for playing a Fable 3 backup. The End.
     
  13. fersy

    fersy Enthusiast

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    amen :lol:
     
  14. Scarface-8

    Scarface-8 Enthusiast

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    Thanks, there's a lot of confusion. :rolleyes:
     
  15. mdoggie

    mdoggie Newbie

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    I think it only gets compounded by people claiming some other games are now unable to run as a backup. I've read on another forum that, according to some, black ops since the title update is not allowing a backup to be played. I am doubting this as more FUD, but I thought I should just throw it out there.

    My original of the game is working just fine.
     
  16. OP
    Animorphed

    Animorphed Getting There

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    Black Ops backups (SSv2 Patched) are working fine.

    Also, thanks to everyone who said this thread was helpful. I will continue to keep it updated as much as possible.
    I do test everything I can before posting so if for some reason something you read here isn't working as I said it should feel free to PM me and perhaps we can fix it for you.
     
  17. Nik360

    Nik360 Newbie

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    any news if Kinect games (Sports, Dance central, Your Shape, etc.) include AP25 ?

    Adventures and Sport are both verified @ abgx360, but with SSv2 .
    Aventures is wave 8 and Sports is wave 9 (?!?)


    tnx
     
  18. cutch

    cutch Enthusiast

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    As this very topic says, the only game known to have active AP 2.5 protection is Fable III.

    I've been playing retail Adventures and a backup of sports this evening (UK time) fine, and my Xval still says clean.
     
  19. I MIKE C I

    I MIKE C I Getting There

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    Wow, thanks that has really helped.

    There is still something I don't understand...
    What are the different waves about as in there are different waves of games such as wave 5 wave 6 etc. I believe the difference in each wave is a difference in the security checks but how can there be only ssv1, ssv2 and now ap25 thats only 3 different security "versions" but how can there be so many different waves?
     
  20. xXShAdOvVXx

    xXShAdOvVXx <(^_^)>

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    Nice thread it's very helpful! :smile: